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fighting against hate groups, effect of destroying their place, twitter screenshot 

Turns out that destroying gathering place for nazis/oppressors actually works and we should do it and continue to do it.

Just saying "they will move somehere else" is totally stupid and doesn't understand the principle of war of cost.

twitter.com/oneunderscore__/st

re: fighting against hate groups, effect of destroying their place, twitter screenshot 

Hint: that also means that if you let them prosper on your mastodon instance you are helping them.

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re: fighting against hate groups, effect of destroying their place, twitter screenshot 

@bram Likewise for the apps that allow access to those instances. -looks at Fedilab and various Tusky forks to remove Tusky's blocklist-

re: fighting against hate groups, effect of destroying their place, twitter screenshot 

@KitsuneAlicia Huh.

Preventing access to nazi instances from inside the app is a good thing. But if you want to argue that not doing so is "helping nazis" you'll have to argue that Mozilla is helping nazis because they do not block access to 4chan in Firefox. Wouldn't that be a stretch?

I don't think that "allowing access to" and "giving a platform to" are equivalent here.
@bram

re: fighting against hate groups, effect of destroying their place, twitter screenshot 

@lertsenem @bram If you really wanna do this whataboutism, I can play along.

Yes, we should be fighting against these violent ideologies on every available front. And no, it's not a stretch.

Web browsers have built-in malware blacklists, and so sites that promote these provably hateful ideologies can be added to a similar blacklist, as they are a clear and present danger to their users.

re: fighting against hate groups, effect of destroying their place, twitter screenshot 

@lertsenem @bram Then there's the DNS servers that register these sites in their address books.

If hosting services are willing to stand against violent extremists like the provider that cut off BitMitigate's service for hosting 8chan, it's also not a stretch to extend this to the address books of the internet themselves.

re: fighting against hate groups, effect of destroying their place, twitter screenshot 

@lertsenem @bram That said, while it's not a stretch to do either of these things, the public doesn't have the level of organization to actually accomplish this yet.

As such, focusing on the smaller ones will be more likely to bring about results that we can build upon to then tackle the bigger, more powerful companies.

re: fighting against hate groups, effect of destroying their place, twitter screenshot 

@KitsuneAlicia Let me reiterate because I think we agree on this: blocking nazis is good and I'm all for it. Providing block lists or filtered DNS is also good. Blocking them by default anywhere is good.

But still, no major browser blocks 8chan by default, and I don't think it's the same as "all major browsers are helping 8chan" ? Whereas I do think that hosting their website is clearly helping them. @bram

re: fighting against hate groups, effect of destroying their place, twitter screenshot 

@lertsenem @bram Let me be clear: Browsers *could* block if they wanted to. The fact that they aren't is equivalent to leaving the keys to your car on the windshield so that a getaway driver can then steal your car with no trouble whatsoever, saving precious time and lessening the likelihood of getting caught.

As such, browsers *are* helping violent extremists, even if it's by sheer negligence.

re: fighting against hate groups, effect of destroying their place, twitter screenshot 

@lertsenem @bram On top of that, these violent extremists know how the system works and they know how to manipulate it to their advantage.

As such, every piece of the system that works to enable these ideologies needs to be held accountable, every tool at our disposal needs to be utilized if we want to stop them. That includes browsers.

re: fighting against hate groups, effect of destroying their place, twitter screenshot 

@KitsuneAlicia Okay, so I guess we disagree on that point.

While I agree that those hosting such websites are complicits, I don't think that browsers not blocking them are too.

But I do understand better your position, though. Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me. :)

re: fighting against hate groups, effect of destroying their place, twitter screenshot 

@lertsenem all major browsers are helping 8chan.

They have the technical capacity to at least show a warning; their ongoing decision not to do anything is exactly the same free speech fundamentalism that gives us Gab and apps which access it.

re: fighting against hate groups, effect of destroying their place, twitter screenshot 

@lertsenem @KitsuneAlicia @bram If you allow hate groups to organize in any network it's no longer safe for potential victims of hate crimes to be in that place.
If you don't want to choose which users you want that choice will be made automatically bc that place *will turn* into a "national liberated zone"

Ergo, "allowing Nazis access" and "giving Nazis a platform" are functionally equivalent.

re: fighting against hate groups, effect of destroying their place, twitter screenshot 

@Cap I don't think I understand you? If you manage to remove their websites and prevent anyone from hosting them there's nothing they can do, even with browsers not implementing any hard block. So it can't really be equivalent?

I think there's an issue with "allowing nazis access" : it's rather "allowing access to nazis websites". Which makes apparent that you really win by removing the website. @KitsuneAlicia

re: fighting against hate groups, effect of destroying their place, twitter screenshot 

@lertsenem @Cap But that's impossible to accomplish thanks to how the internet is set up. These groups can self-host, ya know, and IP addresses are very easy to change and can be accessed independent of DNS servers, so pressuring them to stop hosting themselves is foolhardy.

This is why I said we need to use all the tools at our disposal. Set up blockades at every level.

re: fighting against hate groups, effect of destroying their place, twitter screenshot 

@KitsuneAlicia That's a good point, but isn't "IP adresses are easy to change and use" also an argument against browser-side blocks?

And honestly, if we can get to the point where they have to self-host and can't use regular DNS, we'll have as good as won. They wouldn't be able to mainstream their disgusting ideas anymore. @Cap

re: fighting against hate groups, effect of destroying their place, twitter screenshot 

@lertsenem @Cap Hmm. You do raise a good point there. Still, I stand by what I said. It's ultimately better to attack on all fronts, using every tool in our arsenal.

Even one hole in a bucket still causes leaks, no matter how small. And an extra roll of tape around it to stop leaks never hurts if you have the ability.

re: fighting against hate groups, effect of destroying their place, twitter screenshot 

@KitsuneAlicia Just to be clear : I agree with you on that.

Where I think we diverge is that, for me, not going the extra mile to hard-block nazis URL in a generic application should not be labelled as "helping nazis" ; "helping nazis" is imo reserved for those providing a platform to them.
@Cap

re: fighting against hate groups, effect of destroying their place, twitter screenshot 

@lertsenem @KitsuneAlicia *Removing* the blocklist from a fork is very much intentional. It usually comes from at least one of two ideological camps:
1. people who want to expand the influence of Gab
2. people who think blocking Nazis is "censorship" and bad. most of them also think LGBT+/anti-fascist/etc toots are inherently "political" and the real cause of any harassment that may follow.
:i_ship_it: 🙄

re: fighting against hate groups, effect of destroying their place, twitter screenshot 

@Cap Oh, yeah, no question there.

If you fork a project in which the author went out of their way to add a blocklist (and thus made a political statement), you are making a political statement. If the blocklist was about nazis, the statement is that you're okay with helping nazis bypass this blocklist. Which, whatever you may tell yourself, means you are a nazi. :/

@KitsuneAlicia

re: fighting against hate groups, effect of destroying their place, twitter screenshot 

@lertsenem @Cap Same goes for adding and then choosing to remove a blocklist like Fedilab did. It's a deliberate choice to enable hatred and violence.

re: fighting against hate groups, effect of destroying their place, twitter screenshot 

@KitsuneAlicia Oh. Yeah. I did not know they did that... @Cap

re: fighting against hate groups, effect of destroying their place, twitter screenshot 

@lertsenem @KitsuneAlicia The only way to "remove a website" is to make it inaccessible to the average user.

I don't think waiting until *someone* is able to take Nazi instances down and arrests the Nazis in "non-Nazi" instances is a viable strategy.

"IP adresses are easy to change and use" is not an "argument against browser-side blocks", it's an argument for updating blocklists regularly.

re: fighting against hate groups, effect of destroying their place, twitter screenshot 

@lertsenem
I think that apps preventing access are short-term solutions. The chance for fedilab to help hinder the Nazis is over now that the Tusky forks are up. But we have to focus on what effective means we have to isolate them.

We need those greylists pronto.
@lertsenem @KitsuneAlicia @bram - 1/2

re: fighting against hate groups, effect of destroying their place, twitter screenshot 

re: fighting against hate groups, effect of destroying their place, twitter screenshot 

@bram <insert it crowd gif where roy points the finger in the air in a "I told you so" way in the first episode at the people in my mention yesterday>

re: fighting against hate groups, effect of destroying their place, twitter screenshot 

@bram this seems a little too rosy, but it mostly checks out

fighting against hate groups, effect of destroying their place, twitter screenshot 

@bram it's like pest control; don't let them feed or breed :flan_molotov:

fighting against hate groups, effect of destroying their place, twitter screenshot 

@bram i'm mixed between the metaphors of getting rid of the disease vector versus making it harder to make sudden bad decisions like when the suicide rate went down after they got rid of coal gas ovens

fighting against hate groups, effect of destroying their place, twitter screenshot 

@bram "don't take our site down because we'll just resurface elsewhere" as an argument only makes sense as an attack on the easily confused by fash. I'd honestly keep an eye on who starts screeching over this, because it'll be either useful tools or fascists. . .

fighting against hate groups, effect of destroying their place, twitter screenshot 

@proxeus here you go (see toot above)

fighting against hate groups, effect of destroying their place, twitter screenshot 

@bram it totally makes sense. Look at all the communities that wouldn’t exist if not for the platforms that enable them to function. It’s all over online.

fighting against hate groups, effect of destroying their place, twitter screenshot 

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